PeptideStack
5.2kquestions
20kanswers
220users

How much of the first four weeks of loss is fluid?

Asked 20 Apr 2024Modified 2.0 years agoViewed 49k times
30

I am training twice a week and would rather optimise that than add a third session.

I can do the algebra. I am not confident about the conversion factors.

If there is a standard way to lay this out, I would rather learn that than invent one.

Can someone show the working rather than just the answer?

plateau
plateau

A stall in progress: distinguishing adaptive thermogenesis from measurement error from adherence drift, how long to observe before changing…

35 questions
hydration
hydration

Fluid intake when thirst and intake cues are both blunted: how much of the early scale drop is fluid, how dehydration confounds a renal panel, and…

14 questions
weight-regain
weight-regain

Regain after stopping or reducing: the trajectory reported in the withdrawal extensions, how much is fluid, and what the maintenance arms tell us…

14 questions
shareeditfollowflag
MH
askedm_haraldsen38k3820 Apr 2024

5 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
82

Accepted answer

A plateau at four to six months is the expected shape of the curve, not a failure of it. Energy expenditure falls with mass, and the deficit closes itself unless intake falls further.

The first four weeks of loss is substantially fluid and glycogen. Each gram of stored glycogen carries roughly three grams of water, and total glycogen is on the order of 400 to 500 g, so the obligatory water shift alone accounts for a couple of kilograms. This is why the first month looks dramatic and the second looks like a plateau when in fact the fat-loss rate has not changed.

What each body-composition method measures

MethodMeasuresSensitive toLeast significant change
DEXAThree-compartment by attenuationHydration, positioning~2–3 % regional lean
BIA (consumer)Impedance, modelledHydration, food, temperatureNot usable at this timescale
Air displacementTwo-compartment by densityLung volume, hair, clothing~1–2 % fat mass
Tape and scaleCircumference, massTechniqueSurprisingly usable as a trend

On the detail: the regain trajectory after stopping is roughly a mirror of the loss trajectory, and it is not primarily a willpower phenomenon. Appetite signalling returns, energy expenditure remains suppressed relative to the original mass, and the two combine. That is an argument for a maintenance plan existing before the stop, rather than an argument against stopping.

The body-composition substudies in the major programmes consistently report that the proportion of weight lost as fat mass is approximately three quarters or better, with the lean-mass fraction falling within the range seen in dietary weight loss of comparable magnitude[1].

Worth stating that a DEXA sequence is only as good as its protocol consistency, and most people’s sequences are not consistent enough to support the conclusions drawn from them.

Two resistance sessions a week and a protein target you actually hit will do more than any refinement beyond them.

shareimprove this answerflag
IB
answered · acceptedines_brandt93k24828 Jul 2024
5The arithmetic checks out. I ran the same numbers and got the same result. – triple_agonist_q 5 months ago
add a comment
Sponsored

Janoshik Analytical - Independent Third-Party Testing

HPLC purity, identity confirmation and quantified content on the vial you actually hold. Reports arrive with the chromatogram attached, not just a number.

Submit a sample
Sponsored — paired listing

GL Biochem (Shanghai) Ltd. - Direct Synthesis

Founded 1998. ISO 9001 and cGMP certified, 1,500+ staff and 200+ patents. The synthesis house behind a great many of the vials that get sent out for testing - batch-specific documentation with every order.

Visit GL Biochem
33

The part that matters: start with the arithmetic, because the answer to the practical question is usually a number and the number is usually achievable.

Cardio does not interfere with lean-mass retention at the volumes anyone here is doing; the interference effect in the literature appears at high concurrent volumes in trained athletes. What cardio does at a large deficit is add to the deficit, which is either the point or a problem depending on the objective.

The minimum effective resistance-training dose in a deficit is lower than most programmes assume. Two sessions a week covering the major movement patterns, with loads taken close to failure, is sufficient to retain most of what would otherwise be lost. Volume beyond that adds recovery cost that a large energy deficit is poorly placed to pay.

I would be careful with the supplement literature here; effect sizes are small, the studies are mostly in trained young men, and generalisation to a large deficit is not obviously valid.

A maintenance plan written before you need it is worth more than a better loss plan.

shareimprove this answerflag
EV
answeredesther_vandeVelde49k3817 Jul 2024
7This is the answer I was looking for three months ago. – Dr_Priya_Raghunathan 18 days ago
8The arithmetic checks out. I ran the same numbers and got the same result. – mass_shift_18 2 months ago
add a comment
26

The commonly quoted figures for lean-mass loss are mostly measurement artefacts, and the artefact is well understood: fat-free mass as measured includes water and glycogen, both of which fall early and neither of which is contractile tissue.

Food noise returning is not obviously tolerance. Receptor desensitisation is one hypothesis; a second is that the initial effect was partly novelty and partly the steep early deficit, and a third is that intake has drifted upward and the signal is being outcompeted rather than weakened. The three make different predictions about what a dose increase would do.

Stated carefully, absolute strength holds up better than scale weight during a deficit for a straightforward reason: strength is substantially neural and skill-based, and the contractile tissue you retain is being trained harder relative to its size. Grip strength and repetition maxima are therefore lagging indicators of muscle loss rather than leading ones, which is an argument for measuring both.

The caveat is that population averages tell you about populations. Your own trajectory is a sample of one and should be read as a trend, not as a deviation from a published mean.

Train, eat the protein, measure something functional, and give the trend three months before you interpret it.

shareimprove this answerflag
JF
answeredjuliette_farnese12k2822 Apr 2024
22

The part that matters: what the data supports is narrower than what gets recommended, so it is worth separating the two.

Protein target, worked: at 88 kg, a target of 1.6 g/kg is 88 × 1.6 = 141 g per day. Spread across three eating occasions that is roughly 47 g each, and the leucine threshold for a maximal muscle protein synthetic response is met at around 2.5 to 3 g of leucine, which corresponds to roughly 30 to 40 g of a high-quality protein. So three meals at 40 g plus one 25 g snack gets you to 145 g and clears the per-meal threshold each time. On 900 kcal that leaves about 340 kcal for everything else, which is the actual constraint.

The evidence for a higher protein intake preserving lean mass during an energy deficit is reasonably strong in resistance-trained populations and weaker in sedentary ones, with the meta-analytic estimates supporting intakes in the region of 1.6 g/kg over lower intakes when training is present[1].

Measure strength as well as mass. It is cheaper, it is less noisy, and it is closer to what you actually care about.

shareimprove this answerflag
SC
answeredstopper_core50k1388 Aug 2024
14

Put another way, the distinction that resolves this is between proportional loss and functional loss. Losing lean mass in proportion to total mass is what happens in every weight loss intervention. Losing function is not, and function is measurable.

DEXA precision is better than people assume for fat mass and worse than people assume for lean mass in a single scan — the least significant change for regional lean mass on a well-maintained scanner is on the order of a few per cent. That means two scans three months apart can differ without anything having happened, and it means a scan sequence needs to be at least three points before a trend is interpretable.

SURMOUNT-4 provides the cleanest maintenance-versus-withdrawal contrast available in the class, and it is the reference for any claim about what happens after stopping[1].

The plateau is arithmetic. Treat it as arithmetic and the response follows.

shareimprove this answerflag
BF
answeredbea_forsberg14k2814 May 2024
5Good answer, but the confidence interval in the cited trial is wider than implied. – nils_karlberg 3 months ago
add a comment

Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

Not medical advice. Research-use-only compounds are not approved for human use.