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What does STEP 8 tell me about hair thinning at the 50 mg dose?

Asked 29 Jul 2024Modified 22 months agoViewed 10k times
12

Numbers first: STEP 8 · hair thinning · 50 mg.

I can parse the result. I am less sure what it licenses me to conclude.

I have deliberately not looked at anyone else’s interpretation yet.

Which parts of this are informative and which are decoration?

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askedfelix_araya17k2829 Jul 2024

5 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
41

Accepted answer

Read the estimand before the effect size. Almost every apparent contradiction between two published figures from the same trial resolves once you notice that one is a trial-product estimand and the other is a treatment-policy estimand.

Creatinine is a muscle-derived metabolite, so a substantial loss of lean mass lowers serum creatinine and mathematically raises estimated GFR without anything happening to the kidney. If you have lost twenty kilograms, your creatinine-based eGFR is flattering you. Cystatin C is not muscle-dependent and is the measure to use when the two disagree.

Relative to absolute, worked

QuantityValueDerivation
Control-arm event rate8.0 %From the trial table, not the abstract
Hazard ratio0.80Reported
Treated event rate6.4 %8.0 × 0.80
Absolute risk reduction1.6 pp8.0 − 6.4
Number needed to treat631 ÷ 0.016
Relative risk reduction20 %1 − 0.80

The last two rows describe the same finding. Only one of them is used in headlines.

Stated carefully, a fasting lipid panel drawn during rapid weight loss reads oddly for a mechanical reason: mobilised adipose tissue delivers free fatty acids to the liver, and hepatic triglyceride export rises. Triglycerides can transiently increase while the person is doing exactly the right thing. Draw the panel when weight has been stable for a few weeks if you want an interpretable number.

STEP 1 reported a mean weight change of approximately −14.9 per cent with semaglutide 2.4 mg versus −2.4 per cent with placebo at 68 weeks[1]; the difference between the figures quoted from this trial in different places is an estimand difference.

The caveat is the population. Trial participants were screened, monitored and supported; the effect size in an unmonitored setting is not the trial effect size, and it is not obvious in which direction the difference runs.

Read the confidence interval, read the estimand, and compute the absolute effect yourself. It takes two minutes and it changes how the result feels.

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answered · acceptednkem_obiora46k385 Oct 2024
Useful. I have added the accept threshold suggestion to my own notes. – Dr_Sara_Kuusela 5 months ago
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41

Start with the population. The inclusion criteria of the trial determine what its result can be extrapolated to, and the extrapolation people want is usually to a population the trial excluded.

Absolute risk reduction, worked: if the control-arm event rate is 8.0 per cent over the follow-up period and the hazard ratio is 0.80, the treated rate is approximately 6.4 per cent, the absolute risk reduction is 1.6 percentage points, and the number needed to treat is 1 ÷ 0.016 ≈ 63 over that period. A 20 per cent relative reduction and a number needed to treat of 63 are the same finding stated two ways, and only one of them sounds impressive.

Specifically, the rodent thyroid C-cell findings that generated the labelled warning appear to be species-specific: rodent C-cells express GLP-1 receptors at high density, human C-cells at very low density, and human calcitonin data across large trial populations has not reproduced the signal. A family history of medullary thyroid carcinoma or MEN2 is nonetheless a genuine contraindication rather than a theoretical one.

SURMOUNT-OSA reported reductions in the apnoea-hypopnoea index with tirzepatide in adults with obesity and moderate-to-severe obstructive sleep apnoea, both with and without concurrent positive airway pressure therapy[1].

Worth being explicit that this is interpretation of published data and not medical advice. Laboratory results belong in a conversation with whoever ordered them.

If the trend across three draws is flat, the difference between draws one and two was noise. Most of what people react to is noise.

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EV
answeredekaterina_volk16k2812 Sept 2024
29

The hazard ratio is the relative effect. What changes decisions is the absolute effect, and converting between them requires the event rate in the control arm, which is usually in the same table and rarely in the abstract.

Estimated average glucose from HbA1c: eAG in mg/dL = 28.7 × A1c − 46.7, or in mmol/L, 1.59 × A1c − 2.59. An A1c of 6.5 per cent is therefore about 140 mg/dL or 7.8 mmol/L. The relationship is a population regression, so an individual can sit well off the line.

HbA1c is a weighted average, not a flat one: roughly half the signal comes from the most recent month. That is why a value drawn six weeks after a change already reflects most of the effect, and why a value drawn during rapid haematological turnover reflects something other than glycaemia.

SELECT reported a hazard ratio of 0.80 (95% CI 0.72–0.90) for the primary composite major adverse cardiovascular event endpoint with semaglutide 2.4 mg in overweight or obese adults with established cardiovascular disease and without diabetes[1].

The limitation is that surrogate endpoints and hard endpoints have come apart before in metabolic medicine, so a favourable biomarker is a reason for optimism rather than a conclusion.

The papers are readable. Read the paper rather than the summary of the paper, especially where the summary is enthusiastic.

edited 11 Sept 2024 by j_wierzbicki — expanded the table to cover the lower concentration

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JW
answeredj_wierzbicki45k381 Sept 2024
19

The relevant detail is that this is a question about what the trial was designed to answer, and the honest response is that it was not designed to answer this.

The early fall in estimated glomerular filtration rate on treatment is haemodynamic rather than structural. Reduced intraglomerular pressure lowers the filtration rate acutely and preserves the glomerulus chronically — the same pattern seen with renin-angiotensin blockade and with SGLT2 inhibition. A dip of a few millilitres per minute in the first weeks, followed by a shallower long-term slope, is the desired trajectory, not a warning sign.

One qualification: a trial that demonstrates an endpoint at a given dose has demonstrated it at that dose. Extrapolating the endpoint down the dose ladder is an assumption, not a finding.

Convert everything to an absolute effect before you compare two interventions. Relative effects are not comparable across different baseline risks.

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DA
answeredDr_Yusuf_Adeyemi95k24824 Sept 2024
17

A single laboratory value is a point on a noisy curve. What you want is a trend across at least three draws under comparable conditions, and "comparable" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.

Liver enzymes are a poor surrogate for hepatic histology in both directions: substantial steatohepatitis with normal transaminases is common, and modest enzyme elevation with minimal fibrosis is common. If the question is fibrosis, the answer comes from a non-invasive score such as FIB-4 or a stiffness measurement, not from ALT.

SURMOUNT-4 randomised participants after an open-label lead-in to continued tirzepatide or placebo, and the withdrawal arm regained a substantial proportion of the lost weight over the following year[1].

None of this replaces a clinician who can see the whole picture, and the whole picture is usually where the answer is.

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KL
answeredkirsi_lahtinen45k3830 Jul 2024
2Worth flagging that this changed in 2025, so older answers on the site are out of date. – n_takahashi 6 months ago
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