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What did the placebo arm of PIONEER-1 report for injection-site erythema?

Asked 19 Nov 2024Modified 17 months agoViewed 35k times
23

Stated plainly: PIONEER-1 · injection-site erythema.

I have read the primary source rather than the summary, which has left me with more questions.

I understand the headline. I do not understand the footnotes, and the footnotes look important.

How should I read this, and where are the traps?

clinical-trials
clinical-trials

Reading the primary literature properly: estimands, intention-to-treat versus per-protocol, confidence intervals, absolute versus relative…

745 questions
injection-site-reaction
injection-site-reaction

Local reactions: erythema, induration, pruritus and nodules. Their relationship to injection depth, diluent composition, benzyl alcohol…

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UM
askedunit_math6.2k1519 Nov 2024
6Worth saying whether you want relative or absolute risk. They read very differently. – Dr_Jonas_Halvorsen 2 months ago
5Same question, and the two papers I found disagree, which is why I am watching. – coring_risk 7 days ago
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5 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
59

Accepted answer

The PIONEER-1 placebo arm is the only thing that makes its treatment arm interpretable, and it is the row nobody quotes. Symptoms reported under placebo in these programmes are not rare, because the population is being asked about them weekly and would have had some of them regardless. The attributable figure is the treated rate minus the placebo rate, and that difference is routinely a fraction of the headline. Two cautions on the subtraction: the arms must have been assessed the same way, and a discontinuation for an event removes that participant from later time points in both arms, which flatters whichever arm loses more people.

Stated carefully, the trial answers a narrower question than the headline suggests, and the narrowing is where the useful information is.

Duration decides what can be seen. A 68-week trial can measure weight and glycaemia; it cannot measure anything whose event rate is one per cent per year without enrolling tens of thousands.

Headline results, principal programmes

TrialAgentnDurationPrimary result
STEP 1Semaglutide 2.4 mg1,96168 wk−14.9 % vs −2.4 % weight
STEP 2Semaglutide 2.4 mg, T2DM1,21068 wk−9.6 % vs −3.4 % weight
SURMOUNT-1Tirzepatide 5/10/15 mg2,53972 wk−15 / −19 / −21 % weight
SURMOUNT-4Tirzepatide, withdrawal67088 wkContinued loss vs substantial regain
SELECTSemaglutide 2.4 mg17,604~40 moMACE HR 0.80 (0.72–0.90)
FLOWSemaglutide 1.0 mg, CKD3,533~3.4 yrRenal composite reduced; stopped early
SURMOUNT-OSATirzepatide, OSA46952 wkAHI reduced with and without PAP

A composite endpoint is only as informative as its least serious component. Where a cardiovascular composite combines death, infarction and stroke, ask which component moved, because they are not interchangeable outcomes.

Where a result is quoted from a conference abstract rather than a peer-reviewed publication, the numbers routinely move between the two. It is worth checking which one you are reading.

If a claim cannot be traced to a named trial with a named endpoint, treat it as a claim rather than as evidence.

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RS
answered · acceptedrota_site36k2715 Dec 2024
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22

Before comparing two trials, check whether they share an endpoint definition. Frequently they do not, and the numbers then are not comparable in any sense.

Intention-to-treat and per-protocol analyses answer different questions. ITT asks what happens if you offer the treatment; per-protocol asks what happens if it is taken as directed. The gap between the two is a measure of how tolerable the protocol was.

The part that matters: open-label extensions are not the same evidence as the randomised phase. Once everyone knows what they are taking, the reported outcomes acquire a bias that no analysis fully removes.

Registry entries at ClinicalTrials.gov carry the pre-specified primary endpoint with a timestamp, which is the cheapest available check on whether an endpoint was changed after the data were seen.

I am not a clinician and this is not medical advice; it is a reading of a published protocol.

Quote the interval alongside the estimate and half the disagreements on this site would not start.

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TM
answeredthermal_mass13k1726 Dec 2024
2Adding a vote because this deserves more of them. – esben_lykke 3 months ago
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19

This is answerable from the published record, but only if you take the placebo arm seriously rather than reading the active arm alone.

Placebo arms in this class are not nothing. Lifestyle-intervention placebo arms in the major obesity trials commonly lose two to three per cent of body weight, so an active-arm figure quoted without its comparator overstates the drug effect by roughly that much.

Non-inferiority and superiority designs are not interchangeable. A non-inferiority result says the new agent is not meaningfully worse against a pre-specified margin — it does not say it is as good, and it certainly does not say it is better.

One qualification: absence of a signal in a trial of this size is not evidence of absence for a rare event. It is evidence that the event is rarer than the trial could detect.

The short version: check the endpoint, check the comparator, check who was excluded, then look at the number.

edited 20 Jan 2025 by rota_site — added a caveat about sampling

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RS
answeredrota_site36k276 Jan 2025
3Is the open-label extension included in that figure, or just the randomised phase? – Dr_Fatima_Belkacem 2 months ago
2I would gently push back — that was a secondary endpoint, not the primary one. – tamsin_wray 24 days ago
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15

The honest answer here is that the published evidence supports part of the claim and is silent on the rest, and it is worth being precise about which part is which.

Trial populations are selected. Exclusion criteria in this class routinely remove people with significant renal impairment, prior pancreatitis and unstable psychiatric illness, which is exactly the population the results are then quoted for.

Meta-analyses in this area are dominated by whichever trial contributed the most participants, so read the forest plot rather than the summary estimate.

Read the protocol and the statistical analysis plan if the result matters to you. Both are usually published alongside.

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DH
answeredDr_Jonas_Halvorsen28k3717 Jan 2025
2Good answer, but the confidence interval in the cited trial is wider than implied. – sian_llewellyn 7 months ago
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14

The short version: the effect is real, the magnitude depends on the population, and the population is usually the part that gets dropped when a result is quoted second-hand.

Confidence intervals matter more than point estimates when two trials disagree. Two studies reporting fifteen and twenty per cent whose intervals overlap heavily have not disagreed about anything.

The cardiovascular outcome programme in this class runs to several large randomised trials — LEADER for liraglutide, SUSTAIN-6 and SELECT for semaglutide, REWIND for dulaglutide — and they are the reason the class is discussed as more than a weight intervention.

When two sources disagree, the answer is almost always in the methods section of the one you have not read.

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PM
answeredpieter_maas14k1728 Feb 2025
2Which population was that figure from? It moves a lot between the trials. – ines_delacruz 9 months ago
Absolute risk reduction rather than relative would make this much more useful. – plate_count_9k 7 months ago
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Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

Not medical advice. Research-use-only compounds are not approved for human use.