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What interval makes sense for repeating ferritin on oral semaglutide?

Asked 19 Apr 2024Modified 23 months agoViewed 25k times
27

Concretely: ferritin · oral semaglutide.

I want to decide this in advance so that I am not deciding it under pressure later.

Assume I will follow the plan I write down, so I would like it to be a good one.

How would you structure this, and what thresholds would you set in advance?

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CD
askedcolm_dunphy16k1619 Apr 2024

4 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
123

Accepted answer

The hazard ratio is the relative effect. What changes decisions is the absolute effect, and converting between them requires the event rate in the control arm, which is usually in the same table and rarely in the abstract.

Liver enzymes are a poor surrogate for hepatic histology in both directions: substantial steatohepatitis with normal transaminases is common, and modest enzyme elevation with minimal fibrosis is common. If the question is fibrosis, the answer comes from a non-invasive score such as FIB-4 or a stiffness measurement, not from ALT.

It helps to be literal here: hbA1c is a weighted average, not a flat one: roughly half the signal comes from the most recent month. That is why a value drawn six weeks after a change already reflects most of the effect, and why a value drawn during rapid haematological turnover reflects something other than glycaemia.

The PIONEER programme established oral semaglutide’s efficacy and the constraints on its administration, and the bioavailability figure of roughly one per cent is what drives the fasting and water-volume requirements[1].

None of this replaces a clinician who can see the whole picture, and the whole picture is usually where the answer is.

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answered · acceptednine_point_nine45k13823 Jul 2024
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48

It helps to be literal here: read the estimand before the effect size. Almost every apparent contradiction between two published figures from the same trial resolves once you notice that one is a trial-product estimand and the other is a treatment-policy estimand.

The early fall in estimated glomerular filtration rate on treatment is haemodynamic rather than structural. Reduced intraglomerular pressure lowers the filtration rate acutely and preserves the glomerulus chronically — the same pattern seen with renin-angiotensin blockade and with SGLT2 inhibition. A dip of a few millilitres per minute in the first weeks, followed by a shallower long-term slope, is the desired trajectory, not a warning sign.

A fasting lipid panel drawn during rapid weight loss reads oddly for a mechanical reason: mobilised adipose tissue delivers free fatty acids to the liver, and hepatic triglyceride export rises. Triglycerides can transiently increase while the person is doing exactly the right thing. Draw the panel when weight has been stable for a few weeks if you want an interpretable number.

SELECT reported a hazard ratio of 0.80 (95% CI 0.72–0.90) for the primary composite major adverse cardiovascular event endpoint with semaglutide 2.4 mg in overweight or obese adults with established cardiovascular disease and without diabetes[1].

Convert everything to an absolute effect before you compare two interventions. Relative effects are not comparable across different baseline risks.

edited 21 Aug 2024 by plate_count_9k — reworded for clarity after a comment

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P9
answeredplate_count_9k95k1583 Aug 2024
28

On the detail: this is a question about what the trial was designed to answer, and the honest response is that it was not designed to answer this.

ApoB and LDL-C disagree because they measure different things: LDL-C is the cholesterol mass carried in the LDL fraction, ApoB is a count of atherogenic particles. Small dense particles carry less cholesterol each, so a person with many small particles has a concordantly higher ApoB than their LDL-C suggests. When they disagree, ApoB is the better risk marker.

The rodent thyroid C-cell findings that generated the labelled warning appear to be species-specific: rodent C-cells express GLP-1 receptors at high density, human C-cells at very low density, and human calcitonin data across large trial populations has not reproduced the signal. A family history of medullary thyroid carcinoma or MEN2 is nonetheless a genuine contraindication rather than a theoretical one.

The limitation is that surrogate endpoints and hard endpoints have come apart before in metabolic medicine, so a favourable biomarker is a reason for optimism rather than a conclusion.

Read the confidence interval, read the estimand, and compute the absolute effect yourself. It takes two minutes and it changes how the result feels.

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CF
answeredclaudia_ferrante46k3812 Jul 2024
The arithmetic checks out. I ran the same numbers and got the same result. – tabular_nums 5 months ago
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-1

The confidence interval is the informative part. A point estimate with an interval spanning no effect is a different object from the same point estimate with a tight interval, and the abstract presents them identically.

A network meta-analysis can rank agents that were never compared directly, but only under a transitivity assumption — that the trials being linked are similar enough in population, duration and endpoint definition for the indirect comparison to hold. In this field that assumption is often visibly violated, which is why indirect rankings should be read as hypotheses.

SURMOUNT-4 randomised participants after an open-label lead-in to continued tirzepatide or placebo, and the withdrawal arm regained a substantial proportion of the lost weight over the following year[1].

The papers are readable. Read the paper rather than the summary of the paper, especially where the summary is enthusiastic.

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DC
answereddrawn_and_capped15k2830 Jun 2024
Two of us worked through this independently and arrived here, so it is at least reproducible. – otto_brenner 27 days ago
8Worth adding that the method section is where the answer usually is. – e_dziedzic 9 months ago
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Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

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