PeptideStack
5.2kquestions
20kanswers
220users

Does the STEP 3 population resemble anyone asking about a GLP-1 receptor agonist here?

Asked 14 Jul 2024Modified 21 months agoViewed 33k times
This question was marked as a duplicate of Does the SURPASS-3 population resemble anyone asking about survodutide here?Closed 17 Aug 2024. It remains here because the answers below are specific to how it was asked.
36

Setup, so nobody has to ask: STEP 3 · a GLP-1 receptor agonist.

I have read the primary source rather than the summary, which has left me with more questions.

I understand the headline. I do not understand the footnotes, and the footnotes look important.

How should I read this, and where are the traps?

clinical-trials
clinical-trials

Reading the primary literature properly: estimands, intention-to-treat versus per-protocol, confidence intervals, absolute versus relative…

913 questions
harm-reduction
harm-reduction

Reducing avoidable risk where a decision has already been made: independent verification before use, sterility practice, dose arithmetic checked…

445 questions
semaglutide
semaglutide

A GLP-1 receptor agonist with a fatty-acid-acylated backbone and a roughly one-week half-life, marketed for type 2 diabetes and for weight…

360 questions
shareeditfollowflag
SK
askeds_kalniete47k3814 Jul 2024
Confirming from the other direction: I did the wrong thing and got exactly the predicted outcome. – Dr_Colm_Fitzhenry 8 months ago
Is there a reason to prefer the second method over the first, other than cost? – bac_or_bust 6 months ago
add a comment

4 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
76

Accepted answer

On the detail: the hazard ratio is the relative effect. What changes decisions is the absolute effect, and converting between them requires the event rate in the control arm, which is usually in the same table and rarely in the abstract.

HbA1c is a weighted average, not a flat one: roughly half the signal comes from the most recent month. That is why a value drawn six weeks after a change already reflects most of the effect, and why a value drawn during rapid haematological turnover reflects something other than glycaemia.

The rodent thyroid C-cell findings that generated the labelled warning appear to be species-specific: rodent C-cells express GLP-1 receptors at high density, human C-cells at very low density, and human calcitonin data across large trial populations has not reproduced the signal. A family history of medullary thyroid carcinoma or MEN2 is nonetheless a genuine contraindication rather than a theoretical one.

The PIONEER programme established oral semaglutide’s efficacy and the constraints on its administration, and the bioavailability figure of roughly one per cent is what drives the fasting and water-volume requirements[1].

If the trend across three draws is flat, the difference between draws one and two was noise. Most of what people react to is noise.

shareimprove this answerflag
DB
answered · acceptedDr_Signe_Baldursdottir46k381 Nov 2024
Thank you — the worked example is what makes this usable. – tandem_gradient 4 months ago
Related: the same reasoning applies to the counter-ion question. – tess_amankwah 3 months ago
add a comment
Sponsored

Sigma-Aldrich - Certified Reference Materials

Analytical standards and reagents with traceable certificates. Every quantitative result you read inherits the accuracy of the standard behind it.

Shop standards
83

It helps to be literal here: a single laboratory value is a point on a noisy curve. What you want is a trend across at least three draws under comparable conditions, and "comparable" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.

The early fall in estimated glomerular filtration rate on treatment is haemodynamic rather than structural. Reduced intraglomerular pressure lowers the filtration rate acutely and preserves the glomerulus chronically — the same pattern seen with renin-angiotensin blockade and with SGLT2 inhibition. A dip of a few millilitres per minute in the first weeks, followed by a shallower long-term slope, is the desired trajectory, not a warning sign.

The part that matters: a fasting lipid panel drawn during rapid weight loss reads oddly for a mechanical reason: mobilised adipose tissue delivers free fatty acids to the liver, and hepatic triglyceride export rises. Triglycerides can transiently increase while the person is doing exactly the right thing. Draw the panel when weight has been stable for a few weeks if you want an interpretable number.

SURMOUNT-1 reported mean weight reductions of approximately 15, 19 and 21 per cent at tirzepatide 5, 10 and 15 mg respectively at 72 weeks[1].

Convert everything to an absolute effect before you compare two interventions. Relative effects are not comparable across different baseline risks.

shareimprove this answerflag
TA
answeredtri_gly_ala48k3810 Oct 2024
55

This is a question about what the trial was designed to answer, and the honest response is that it was not designed to answer this.

ApoB and LDL-C disagree because they measure different things: LDL-C is the cholesterol mass carried in the LDL fraction, ApoB is a count of atherogenic particles. Small dense particles carry less cholesterol each, so a person with many small particles has a concordantly higher ApoB than their LDL-C suggests. When they disagree, ApoB is the better risk marker.

Absolute risk reduction, worked: if the control-arm event rate is 8.0 per cent over the follow-up period and the hazard ratio is 0.80, the treated rate is approximately 6.4 per cent, the absolute risk reduction is 1.6 percentage points, and the number needed to treat is 1 ÷ 0.016 ≈ 63 over that period. A 20 per cent relative reduction and a number needed to treat of 63 are the same finding stated two ways, and only one of them sounds impressive.

The limitation is that surrogate endpoints and hard endpoints have come apart before in metabolic medicine, so a favourable biomarker is a reason for optimism rather than a conclusion.

None of this replaces a clinician who can see the whole picture, and the whole picture is usually where the answer is.

shareimprove this answerflag
KL
answeredkirsi_lahtinen45k3821 Oct 2024
35

Specifically, start with the population. The inclusion criteria of the trial determine what its result can be extrapolated to, and the extrapolation people want is usually to a population the trial excluded.

Estimated average glucose from HbA1c: eAG in mg/dL = 28.7 × A1c − 46.7, or in mmol/L, 1.59 × A1c − 2.59. An A1c of 6.5 per cent is therefore about 140 mg/dL or 7.8 mmol/L. The relationship is a population regression, so an individual can sit well off the line.

SUSTAIN 6 was the original cardiovascular outcomes trial for semaglutide in type 2 diabetes and is the reference point for the class effect that SELECT later extended to a non-diabetic population[1].

The caveat is the population. Trial participants were screened, monitored and supported; the effect size in an unmonitored setting is not the trial effect size, and it is not obvious in which direction the difference runs.

Read the confidence interval, read the estimand, and compute the absolute effect yourself. It takes two minutes and it changes how the result feels.

edited 6 Aug 2024 by mz_4113 — added the placebo-arm figures

shareimprove this answerflag
M4
answeredmz_411399k25816 Jul 2024
2Worth flagging that this changed in 2025, so older answers on the site are out of date. – fresh_bac 7 months ago
add a comment

Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

Not medical advice. Research-use-only compounds are not approved for human use.