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Does the TRIUMPH-3 population resemble anyone asking about tirzepatide here?

Asked 23 Jul 2025Modified 8 months agoViewed 35k times
31

The case in front of me: TRIUMPH-3 · tirzepatide.

I would like to know the limits of what can be inferred from this.

What I am trying to avoid is over-reading a single result, which I have done before.

How should I read this, and where are the traps?

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DV
askeddead_volume49k3823 Jul 2025

5 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
109

Accepted answer

Start with the population. The inclusion criteria of the trial determine what its result can be extrapolated to, and the extrapolation people want is usually to a population the trial excluded.

Liver enzymes are a poor surrogate for hepatic histology in both directions: substantial steatohepatitis with normal transaminases is common, and modest enzyme elevation with minimal fibrosis is common. If the question is fibrosis, the answer comes from a non-invasive score such as FIB-4 or a stiffness measurement, not from ALT.

The underlying point is that apoB and LDL-C disagree because they measure different things: LDL-C is the cholesterol mass carried in the LDL fraction, ApoB is a count of atherogenic particles. Small dense particles carry less cholesterol each, so a person with many small particles has a concordantly higher ApoB than their LDL-C suggests. When they disagree, ApoB is the better risk marker.

SURMOUNT-OSA reported reductions in the apnoea-hypopnoea index with tirzepatide in adults with obesity and moderate-to-severe obstructive sleep apnoea, both with and without concurrent positive airway pressure therapy[1].

If the trend across three draws is flat, the difference between draws one and two was noise. Most of what people react to is noise.

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DV
answered · acceptedDr_Ilse_Vandenberg78k2487 Nov 2025
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42

Concretely, read the estimand before the effect size. Almost every apparent contradiction between two published figures from the same trial resolves once you notice that one is a trial-product estimand and the other is a treatment-policy estimand.

The early fall in estimated glomerular filtration rate on treatment is haemodynamic rather than structural. Reduced intraglomerular pressure lowers the filtration rate acutely and preserves the glomerulus chronically — the same pattern seen with renin-angiotensin blockade and with SGLT2 inhibition. A dip of a few millilitres per minute in the first weeks, followed by a shallower long-term slope, is the desired trajectory, not a warning sign.

A network meta-analysis can rank agents that were never compared directly, but only under a transitivity assumption — that the trials being linked are similar enough in population, duration and endpoint definition for the indirect comparison to hold. In this field that assumption is often visibly violated, which is why indirect rankings should be read as hypotheses.

None of this replaces a clinician who can see the whole picture, and the whole picture is usually where the answer is.

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DC
answeredDr_Idris_Coulibaly40k13818 Nov 2025
31

In practice, the hazard ratio is the relative effect. What changes decisions is the absolute effect, and converting between them requires the event rate in the control arm, which is usually in the same table and rarely in the abstract.

Absolute risk reduction, worked: if the control-arm event rate is 8.0 per cent over the follow-up period and the hazard ratio is 0.80, the treated rate is approximately 6.4 per cent, the absolute risk reduction is 1.6 percentage points, and the number needed to treat is 1 ÷ 0.016 ≈ 63 over that period. A 20 per cent relative reduction and a number needed to treat of 63 are the same finding stated two ways, and only one of them sounds impressive.

The underlying point is that creatinine is a muscle-derived metabolite, so a substantial loss of lean mass lowers serum creatinine and mathematically raises estimated GFR without anything happening to the kidney. If you have lost twenty kilograms, your creatinine-based eGFR is flattering you. Cystatin C is not muscle-dependent and is the measure to use when the two disagree.

Convert everything to an absolute effect before you compare two interventions. Relative effects are not comparable across different baseline risks.

edited 26 Oct 2025 by Dr_Priya_Raghunathan — added the citation requested in comments

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DR
answeredDr_Priya_Raghunathan94k24816 Oct 2025
Thank you — the worked example is what makes this usable. – aine_mulcahy 4 days ago
2Related: the same reasoning applies to the counter-ion question. – s_bhattacharya 2 months ago
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25

Put another way, the confidence interval is the informative part. A point estimate with an interval spanning no effect is a different object from the same point estimate with a tight interval, and the abstract presents them identically.

HbA1c is a weighted average, not a flat one: roughly half the signal comes from the most recent month. That is why a value drawn six weeks after a change already reflects most of the effect, and why a value drawn during rapid haematological turnover reflects something other than glycaemia.

The papers are readable. Read the paper rather than the summary of the paper, especially where the summary is enthusiastic.

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DK
answereddermot_kiely14k1727 Oct 2025
6Good answer, but the confidence interval in the cited trial is wider than implied. – mateo_iglesias 2 months ago
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In practice, this is a question about what the trial was designed to answer, and the honest response is that it was not designed to answer this.

Estimated average glucose from HbA1c: eAG in mg/dL = 28.7 × A1c − 46.7, or in mmol/L, 1.59 × A1c − 2.59. An A1c of 6.5 per cent is therefore about 140 mg/dL or 7.8 mmol/L. The relationship is a population regression, so an individual can sit well off the line.

SELECT reported a hazard ratio of 0.80 (95% CI 0.72–0.90) for the primary composite major adverse cardiovascular event endpoint with semaglutide 2.4 mg in overweight or obese adults with established cardiovascular disease and without diabetes[1].

Read the confidence interval, read the estimand, and compute the absolute effect yourself. It takes two minutes and it changes how the result feels.

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HN
answeredhalvard_ness42k3823 Aug 2025
7Small correction: the units in the third paragraph should be micrograms, not milligrams. – loss_on_drying 6 months ago
8Do you have a reference for the last claim? Not disputing it, just want to read it. – stopper_core 8 months ago
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Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

Not medical advice. Research-use-only compounds are not approved for human use.