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Why did my eGFR drop 8 points in the first month?

Asked 28 Mar 2024Modified 2.0 years agoViewed 28k times
11

The clinician who ordered the panel was not concerned; I would still like to understand it.

This is not behaving the way I expected and I want to understand the discrepancy before I act on it.

I have photographed the current state and recorded the conditions, so I can answer follow-up questions precisely.

How do I distinguish the benign explanation from the one that matters?

kidney-function
kidney-function

eGFR, creatinine, cystatin C and albuminuria: the acute haemodynamic dip that is not injury, the renal outcome data from the FLOW programme, and…

100 questions
renal-outcomes
renal-outcomes

Kidney endpoints: the FLOW composite, eGFR slope as an endpoint, albuminuria regression, and why an early eGFR dip is expected rather than alarming.

14 questions
hydration
hydration

Fluid intake when thirst and intake cues are both blunted: how much of the early scale drop is fluid, how dehydration confounds a renal panel, and…

14 questions
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DF
askedDr_Colm_Fitzhenry85k24828 Mar 2024
8This is the answer I was looking for three months ago. – rune_thoresen 5 months ago
The arithmetic checks out. I ran the same numbers and got the same result. – Dr_Jonas_Halvorsen 7 months ago
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4 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
79

Accepted answer

To be exact about it, the hazard ratio is the relative effect. What changes decisions is the absolute effect, and converting between them requires the event rate in the control arm, which is usually in the same table and rarely in the abstract.

The early fall in estimated glomerular filtration rate on treatment is haemodynamic rather than structural. Reduced intraglomerular pressure lowers the filtration rate acutely and preserves the glomerulus chronically — the same pattern seen with renin-angiotensin blockade and with SGLT2 inhibition. A dip of a few millilitres per minute in the first weeks, followed by a shallower long-term slope, is the desired trajectory, not a warning sign.

The underlying point is that liver enzymes are a poor surrogate for hepatic histology in both directions: substantial steatohepatitis with normal transaminases is common, and modest enzyme elevation with minimal fibrosis is common. If the question is fibrosis, the answer comes from a non-invasive score such as FIB-4 or a stiffness measurement, not from ALT.

FLOW tested a composite renal endpoint — kidney failure, sustained 50 per cent eGFR decline, or renal or cardiovascular death — in type 2 diabetes with chronic kidney disease, and was stopped early for efficacy[1].

The papers are readable. Read the paper rather than the summary of the paper, especially where the summary is enthusiastic.

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ED
answered · acceptede_dziedzic87k24827 Jun 2024
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The underlying point is that this is a question about what the trial was designed to answer, and the honest response is that it was not designed to answer this.

The rodent thyroid C-cell findings that generated the labelled warning appear to be species-specific: rodent C-cells express GLP-1 receptors at high density, human C-cells at very low density, and human calcitonin data across large trial populations has not reproduced the signal. A family history of medullary thyroid carcinoma or MEN2 is nonetheless a genuine contraindication rather than a theoretical one.

Estimated average glucose from HbA1c: eAG in mg/dL = 28.7 × A1c − 46.7, or in mmol/L, 1.59 × A1c − 2.59. An A1c of 6.5 per cent is therefore about 140 mg/dL or 7.8 mmol/L. The relationship is a population regression, so an individual can sit well off the line.

SURMOUNT-4 randomised participants after an open-label lead-in to continued tirzepatide or placebo, and the withdrawal arm regained a substantial proportion of the lost weight over the following year[1].

I would resist reading a subgroup finding as a result. Subgroups in these trials were not powered, and a striking subgroup in a large trial is the expected consequence of multiplicity.

Convert everything to an absolute effect before you compare two interventions. Relative effects are not comparable across different baseline risks.

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IB
answeredilaria_bertone43k3816 Jun 2024
29

More usefully, a single laboratory value is a point on a noisy curve. What you want is a trend across at least three draws under comparable conditions, and "comparable" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.

A network meta-analysis can rank agents that were never compared directly, but only under a transitivity assumption — that the trials being linked are similar enough in population, duration and endpoint definition for the indirect comparison to hold. In this field that assumption is often visibly violated, which is why indirect rankings should be read as hypotheses.

It helps to be literal here: absolute risk reduction, worked: if the control-arm event rate is 8.0 per cent over the follow-up period and the hazard ratio is 0.80, the treated rate is approximately 6.4 per cent, the absolute risk reduction is 1.6 percentage points, and the number needed to treat is 1 ÷ 0.016 ≈ 63 over that period. A 20 per cent relative reduction and a number needed to treat of 63 are the same finding stated two ways, and only one of them sounds impressive.

The caveat is the population. Trial participants were screened, monitored and supported; the effect size in an unmonitored setting is not the trial effect size, and it is not obvious in which direction the difference runs.

If the trend across three draws is flat, the difference between draws one and two was noise. Most of what people react to is noise.

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MI
answeredmateo_iglesias16k2719 Jul 2024
2The timing signature is the useful part. Everything else is confounded. – p_mkhize 8 months ago
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-1

It helps to be literal here: the confidence interval is the informative part. A point estimate with an interval spanning no effect is a different object from the same point estimate with a tight interval, and the abstract presents them identically.

A fasting lipid panel drawn during rapid weight loss reads oddly for a mechanical reason: mobilised adipose tissue delivers free fatty acids to the liver, and hepatic triglyceride export rises. Triglycerides can transiently increase while the person is doing exactly the right thing. Draw the panel when weight has been stable for a few weeks if you want an interpretable number.

SUSTAIN 6 was the original cardiovascular outcomes trial for semaglutide in type 2 diabetes and is the reference point for the class effect that SELECT later extended to a non-diabetic population[1].

One qualification: a trial that demonstrates an endpoint at a given dose has demonstrated it at that dose. Extrapolating the endpoint down the dose ladder is an assumption, not a finding.

Read the confidence interval, read the estimand, and compute the absolute effect yourself. It takes two minutes and it changes how the result feels.

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C8
answeredcoldpack_8837k388 Jul 2024
5I would add a sentence about sterility here, since it is the thing people skip. – Dr_Elias_Weiss 5 months ago
4The placebo-arm figure is the part everyone omits. – yuki_morishita 4 months ago
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Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

Not medical advice. Research-use-only compounds are not approved for human use.