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Is an 18G drawing needle the right choice for drawing survodutide at 5 mg/mL?

Asked 25 Sept 2024Modified 19 months agoViewed 16k times
21

For reference: an 18G drawing needle · survodutide · 5 mg/mL.

I am trying to choose between two options that are usually discussed as though only one exists.

I am not optimising for price, but I am not indifferent to it either.

So which one, and on what grounds?

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JV
askedjo_vandeberg23k2825 Sept 2024
6Same question, and I got two answers that differ by a factor of ten, so I am watching this. – w_okoye 8 months ago
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5 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
76

Accepted answer

At 5 mg/mL a 1 mg dose is 0.2 mL — 20 units on a U-100 barrel — and no needle gauge changes that number. Gauge changes three other things: how long the draw takes, how much stays behind in the hub, and how much rubber you core out of the stopper. On the 18G scale a larger number is a finer needle, so an 18G drawing needle is coarse enough to draw quickly and coarse enough to cut a visible plug from the stopper. If you are drawing 20 units at a time, the dead space matters more than the bore: a fixed-needle barrel loses microlitres, a luer hub loses tens of them, and at 5 mg/mL each microlitre is 5 µg.

Specifically, for a 4 mm pen-style needle the gauge options are narrow and the choice is nearly made for you.

For injecting, 29G to 31G is the usual range and the difference in perceived discomfort between them is small. Needle length matters more than gauge for comfort at these volumes.

Reading a lyophilised cake

AppearanceInterpretationAction
Intact opaque puck, proud of baseCycle ran correctlyProceed
Slumped to one sideShipped before fully dry, or vibrationUsually usable; note it
Glassy translucent filmCollapse above glass transitionTest before use
Melt-back ring at stopperThermal excursion in transitTest before use
No visible cake at allVery low fill, or nothing thereWeigh it; query the supplier

Typical outer diameters: 21G is about 0.82 mm, 23G about 0.64 mm, 25G about 0.51 mm, 29G about 0.34 mm and 31G about 0.26 mm. The gauge number and the diameter move in opposite directions.

Coring risk as a function of needle gauge and insertion technique is documented in pharmacy compounding guidance.

Big to draw, small to inject, never the same one twice.

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RS
answered · acceptedrota_site36k273 Dec 2024
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64

The honest answer is that injection gauge is a comfort decision and drawing gauge is a stopper-coring decision.

Stopper coring — punching a disc of rubber into the solution — is a large-bore phenomenon. An 18G or 21G needle inserted straight and fast is the classic way to do it; inserting at a slight angle with the bevel up reduces the risk.

Very fine needles are more prone to bending and to blocking with any particulate, which is a practical argument for inspecting the solution before drawing.

Higher gauge is not automatically better; it is thinner, which has costs as well as benefits.

Flow goes as the fourth power of radius. That is why the difference feels so large.

edited 29 Dec 2024 by laminar_bench — added the placebo-arm figures

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LB
answeredlaminar_bench69k5715 Dec 2024
8The arithmetic checks out. I ran the same numbers and got the same result. – loss_on_drying 6 months ago
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31

The short version: 21G to 23G to draw, 29G to 31G to inject, and never the same needle for both.

Flow through a needle scales with the fourth power of the internal radius under the Hagen–Poiseuille relation. Halving the radius reduces flow sixteen-fold at the same pressure, which is why a 31G needle draws so much more slowly than a 21G.

Stated carefully, fixed-needle insulin syringes are supplied in 29G to 31G and cannot be swapped for drawing, which is the trade-off against their much lower dead space.

Butyl rubber closures are specified for resealing after piercing up to a stated gauge, which is the basis for the fine-gauge repeated-entry practice.

Angle the bevel and insert gently to avoid coring the stopper.

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GI
answeredgunnar_isaksen14k1722 Nov 2024
26

Start with the fact that gauge numbers run backwards — a higher number is a thinner needle — which is the source of half the confusion in this tag.

Drawing a viscous or foamy solution through a fine needle takes long enough that people rush the plunger, which causes more foaming. Using a wider drawing needle is the fix.

Nothing here is medical advice.

Gauge numbers run backwards. Higher number, thinner needle.

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TH
answeredthreadlock719k2811 Nov 2024
24

The relevant physics is the fourth-power dependence of flow on radius, which makes small gauge differences enormous in practice.

A 30G or 31G needle through a butyl stopper leaves a track that reseals, which is why fine-gauge repeated entry is tolerable and coarse-gauge repeated entry is not.

The caveat is that no gauge choice makes a non-sterile preparation safe, and research-use compounds are not approved for human use.

Length affects comfort more than gauge does at these volumes.

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UM
answeredu100_marks52k3731 Oct 2024
6I have seen exactly this failure mode twice and both times it was the diluent volume. – ravenna_pace 8 months ago
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Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

Not medical advice. Research-use-only compounds are not approved for human use.