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Is TRIUMPH-3 a fair comparison of orforglipron against its comparator arm?

Asked 6 Nov 2024Modified 18 months agoViewed 17k times
14

What I have: TRIUMPH-3 · orforglipron.

I would rather be corrected now than propagate something wrong.

I am specifically not interested in a testimonial; I am interested in a measurement.

Is this actually true, and what is the evidence?

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DO
askedDr_Lena_Ostrowska42k386 Nov 2024
Is there a reason to prefer the second method over the first, other than cost? – g_paskevicius 7 months ago
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5 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
16

Accepted answer

A single laboratory value is a point on a noisy curve. What you want is a trend across at least three draws under comparable conditions, and "comparable" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.

Creatinine is a muscle-derived metabolite, so a substantial loss of lean mass lowers serum creatinine and mathematically raises estimated GFR without anything happening to the kidney. If you have lost twenty kilograms, your creatinine-based eGFR is flattering you. Cystatin C is not muscle-dependent and is the measure to use when the two disagree.

The relevant detail is that hbA1c is a weighted average, not a flat one: roughly half the signal comes from the most recent month. That is why a value drawn six weeks after a change already reflects most of the effect, and why a value drawn during rapid haematological turnover reflects something other than glycaemia.

SELECT reported a hazard ratio of 0.80 (95% CI 0.72–0.90) for the primary composite major adverse cardiovascular event endpoint with semaglutide 2.4 mg in overweight or obese adults with established cardiovascular disease and without diabetes[1].

None of this replaces a clinician who can see the whole picture, and the whole picture is usually where the answer is.

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DB
answered · acceptedDr_Fatima_Belkacem52k13820 Jan 2025
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12

The hazard ratio is the relative effect. What changes decisions is the absolute effect, and converting between them requires the event rate in the control arm, which is usually in the same table and rarely in the abstract.

Estimated average glucose from HbA1c: eAG in mg/dL = 28.7 × A1c − 46.7, or in mmol/L, 1.59 × A1c − 2.59. An A1c of 6.5 per cent is therefore about 140 mg/dL or 7.8 mmol/L. The relationship is a population regression, so an individual can sit well off the line.

A network meta-analysis can rank agents that were never compared directly, but only under a transitivity assumption — that the trials being linked are similar enough in population, duration and endpoint definition for the indirect comparison to hold. In this field that assumption is often visibly violated, which is why indirect rankings should be read as hypotheses.

Worth being explicit that this is interpretation of published data and not medical advice. Laboratory results belong in a conversation with whoever ordered them.

If the trend across three draws is flat, the difference between draws one and two was noise. Most of what people react to is noise.

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VF
answeredvial_five15k2828 Dec 2024
Useful. I have added the accept threshold suggestion to my own notes. – jonas_ekstrom 10 months ago
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9

Read the estimand before the effect size. Almost every apparent contradiction between two published figures from the same trial resolves once you notice that one is a trial-product estimand and the other is a treatment-policy estimand.

The rodent thyroid C-cell findings that generated the labelled warning appear to be species-specific: rodent C-cells express GLP-1 receptors at high density, human C-cells at very low density, and human calcitonin data across large trial populations has not reproduced the signal. A family history of medullary thyroid carcinoma or MEN2 is nonetheless a genuine contraindication rather than a theoretical one.

ApoB and LDL-C disagree because they measure different things: LDL-C is the cholesterol mass carried in the LDL fraction, ApoB is a count of atherogenic particles. Small dense particles carry less cholesterol each, so a person with many small particles has a concordantly higher ApoB than their LDL-C suggests. When they disagree, ApoB is the better risk marker.

STEP 1 reported a mean weight change of approximately −14.9 per cent with semaglutide 2.4 mg versus −2.4 per cent with placebo at 68 weeks[1]; the difference between the figures quoted from this trial in different places is an estimand difference.

I would resist reading a subgroup finding as a result. Subgroups in these trials were not powered, and a striking subgroup in a large trial is the expected consequence of multiplicity.

The papers are readable. Read the paper rather than the summary of the paper, especially where the summary is enthusiastic.

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TM
answeredtobias_maartens94k25817 Dec 2024
Have you seen anything published on this, or is it inference from the mechanism? – cold_lane 10 months ago
Useful. I have added the accept threshold suggestion to my own notes. – dead_volume 40 days ago
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7

On the detail: this is a question about what the trial was designed to answer, and the honest response is that it was not designed to answer this.

Liver enzymes are a poor surrogate for hepatic histology in both directions: substantial steatohepatitis with normal transaminases is common, and modest enzyme elevation with minimal fibrosis is common. If the question is fibrosis, the answer comes from a non-invasive score such as FIB-4 or a stiffness measurement, not from ALT.

Convert everything to an absolute effect before you compare two interventions. Relative effects are not comparable across different baseline risks.

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TW
answeredtamsin_wray13k179 Jan 2025
7I tested this on two lots and got the same answer, so at least it reproduces. – second_lot 3 months ago
6The timing signature is the useful part. Everything else is confounded. – Dr_Colm_Fitzhenry 2 months ago
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1

Start with the population. The inclusion criteria of the trial determine what its result can be extrapolated to, and the extrapolation people want is usually to a population the trial excluded.

The early fall in estimated glomerular filtration rate on treatment is haemodynamic rather than structural. Reduced intraglomerular pressure lowers the filtration rate acutely and preserves the glomerulus chronically — the same pattern seen with renin-angiotensin blockade and with SGLT2 inhibition. A dip of a few millilitres per minute in the first weeks, followed by a shallower long-term slope, is the desired trajectory, not a warning sign.

SURMOUNT-4 randomised participants after an open-label lead-in to continued tirzepatide or placebo, and the withdrawal arm regained a substantial proportion of the lost weight over the following year[1].

Read the confidence interval, read the estimand, and compute the absolute effect yourself. It takes two minutes and it changes how the result feels.

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DZ
answeredDr_Marek_Zielinski39k3811 Feb 2025
Related: the same reasoning applies to the counter-ion question. – kirsi_lahtinen 7 months ago
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Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

Not medical advice. Research-use-only compounds are not approved for human use.