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What does TRIUMPH-3 tell me about fatigue at the 12 mg dose?

Asked 26 Mar 2024Modified 2.1 years agoViewed 13k times
5

The case in front of me: TRIUMPH-3 · fatigue · 12 mg.

The figures are clear enough; the question is what they mean and what they do not.

I can supply the numbers if the specifics change the answer.

How should I read this, and where are the traps?

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DB
askedDr_Ingrid_Baumgartner73k5826 Mar 2024

5 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
82

Accepted answer

Only what the 12 mg arm reported, and the denominator is that arm rather than the trial. Adverse-event tables are published per arm, so the 12 mg incidence of fatigue has its own numerator and its own denominator, and pooling it with the other arms produces a figure that describes nobody. Two further deductions before you use it. Subtract the placebo arm — fatigue occurs in people who received nothing, and the difference is the part attributable to the drug. And check whether TRIUMPH-3 counted events or counted participants: one participant with six episodes is one row in a participant count and six in an event count, and the two get quoted interchangeably. Nothing here is medical advice.

This is answerable from the published record, but only if you take the placebo arm seriously rather than reading the active arm alone.

Trial populations are selected. Exclusion criteria in this class routinely remove people with significant renal impairment, prior pancreatitis and unstable psychiatric illness, which is exactly the population the results are then quoted for.

Confidence intervals matter more than point estimates when two trials disagree. Two studies reporting fifteen and twenty per cent whose intervals overlap heavily have not disagreed about anything.

Where a result is quoted from a conference abstract rather than a peer-reviewed publication, the numbers routinely move between the two. It is worth checking which one you are reading.

Be careful about generalising from a trial population to yourself. The exclusion criteria are usually the most informative page in the supplement.

The short version: check the endpoint, check the comparator, check who was excluded, then look at the number.

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DV
answered · acceptedDr_Ilse_Vandenberg113k2481 Jul 2024
I would gently push back — that was a secondary endpoint, not the primary one. – orla_sheridan 8 months ago
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73

Concretely, a trial establishes what happened to a defined group under a defined protocol. Extending it beyond that group is inference, and inference is allowed as long as it is labelled.

Duration decides what can be seen. A 68-week trial can measure weight and glycaemia; it cannot measure anything whose event rate is one per cent per year without enrolling tens of thousands.

Open-label extensions are not the same evidence as the randomised phase. Once everyone knows what they are taking, the reported outcomes acquire a bias that no analysis fully removes.

One qualification: absence of a signal in a trial of this size is not evidence of absence for a rare event. It is evidence that the event is rarer than the trial could detect.

Quote the interval alongside the estimate and half the disagreements on this site would not start.

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DS
answeredDr_Hanne_Solberg36k2720 Jun 2024
8This should be linked from the help pages. – ines_brandt 8 months ago
Adding a vote because this deserves more of them. – valentina_rossi 9 months ago
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35

Answer first: read the primary endpoint, the comparator and the population before you read the effect size. Almost every argument on this site about a trial is really an argument about one of those three.

Placebo arms in this class are not nothing. Lifestyle-intervention placebo arms in the major obesity trials commonly lose two to three per cent of body weight, so an active-arm figure quoted without its comparator overstates the drug effect by roughly that much.

Concretely, non-inferiority and superiority designs are not interchangeable. A non-inferiority result says the new agent is not meaningfully worse against a pre-specified margin — it does not say it is as good, and it certainly does not say it is better.

I am not a clinician and this is not medical advice; it is a reading of a published protocol.

When two sources disagree, the answer is almost always in the methods section of the one you have not read.

edited 16 Jun 2024 by tamsin_wray — added the citation requested in comments

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TW
answeredtamsin_wray9.9k1629 May 2024
28

The short version: the effect is real, the magnitude depends on the population, and the population is usually the part that gets dropped when a result is quoted second-hand.

A composite endpoint is only as informative as its least serious component. Where a cardiovascular composite combines death, infarction and stroke, ask which component moved, because they are not interchangeable outcomes.

Meta-analyses in this area are dominated by whichever trial contributed the most participants, so read the forest plot rather than the summary estimate.

If a claim cannot be traced to a named trial with a named endpoint, treat it as a claim rather than as evidence.

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EV
answeredesther_vandeVelde52k279 Jun 2024
5This matches what I was told by a clinician, for whatever that is worth. – anders_vestby 6 months ago
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27

The trial answers a narrower question than the headline suggests, and the narrowing is where the useful information is.

Intention-to-treat and per-protocol analyses answer different questions. ITT asks what happens if you offer the treatment; per-protocol asks what happens if it is taken as directed. The gap between the two is a measure of how tolerable the protocol was.

The cardiovascular outcome programme in this class runs to several large randomised trials — LEADER for liraglutide, SUSTAIN-6 and SELECT for semaglutide, REWIND for dulaglutide — and they are the reason the class is discussed as more than a weight intervention.

The caveat is that trial evidence is about licensed product administered under supervision. None of it transfers automatically to research-grade material of unverified content.

Read the protocol and the statistical analysis plan if the result matters to you. Both are usually published alongside.

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DV
answeredDr_Ilse_Vandenberg113k2486 May 2024

Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

Not medical advice. Research-use-only compounds are not approved for human use.