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Is 5 mg weekly a defensible maintenance dose for survodutide?

Asked 8 May 2024Modified 2.0 years agoViewed 83k times
41

For reference: 5 mg · survodutide.

I would like to define my thresholds before I have a result, for obvious reasons.

I want a plan with explicit stopping rules, not just steps.

What does a sensible plan look like, and what are the decision points?

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askedtadhg_o_riordan7.7k158 May 2024

5 Answers

Accepted answer first, then by votes
165

Accepted answer

5 mg a week is 0.714 mg a day averaged out and 260 mg over a year — but "defensible" is not a property of the number, it is a property of where the number came from. A maintenance dose is defensible when a trial randomised people to it and reported what happened, and indefensible when it was arrived at by interpolation between two doses that were studied. So the question to ask of 5 mg is which arm it corresponds to: if a programme ran 5 mg as a maintenance level, there is an efficacy figure, a tolerability figure and a discontinuation rate attached to it. If it sits between two studied levels, everything said about it is extrapolation, and the burden of that is on whoever proposed it. The other half of the arithmetic is supply: at 5 mg a week a 10 mg vial is 2 weeks and you will need about 26 of them a year, which is worth knowing before the dose is settled rather than after. Maintenance doses are set by a prescriber against an individual; nothing here is medical advice.

Answer first: the maintenance dose is the lowest one that holds the result, and finding it is a downward search rather than an upward one.

Maintenance and loss are different endpoints. Loss requires a sustained energy deficit; maintenance requires only that the counter-regulatory drive is offset, and that may need less exposure.

In practice, if the result deteriorates on a lower dose, returning to the previous one is straightforward and does not require re-titration from the bottom provided the gap has been short.

STEP-4 and SURMOUNT-4 evaluated withdrawal rather than dose reduction, which is the limit of the direct evidence on this question.

Inference from the withdrawal trials to dose reduction is inference and should be labelled as such.

The lowest dose that holds the result is the answer, and it is individual.

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answered · acceptedorla_ferriter89k14822 Jun 2024
Thank you — the "slower costs time and nothing else" framing has stuck with me. – tenth_of_a_unit 2 months ago
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48

The relevant observation is that maintenance frequently requires less exposure than the loss phase did, and the trials suggest it rather than establish it.

The withdrawal trials — STEP-4 and SURMOUNT-4 — established what happens when treatment stops entirely. They did not evaluate dose reduction, so the evidence for a lower maintenance dose is inference rather than data.

It helps to be literal here: weight is a noisy signal. A rolling four-week average is the instrument; single weigh-ins after a dose reduction will show nothing interpretable.

The counter-regulatory hormonal response to weight loss persists for at least a year after the loss, which is the physiological reason maintenance needs something rather than nothing.

Glycaemic maintenance gives a faster signal than weight maintenance.

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answeredmarcus_thorbjorn9.4k1631 May 2024
39

Put another way, any reduction takes four to five weeks to express itself, so the search proceeds in months.

A downward search proceeds one step at a time with at least eight weeks at each level, because a weekly agent takes four to five weeks to reach the new steady state and then needs time for the trend to be readable.

The part that matters: gastrointestinal tolerability generally improves on a reduced dose, which is a genuine quality-of-life argument for the search rather than only a cost one.

Gastrointestinal adverse event rates in the trials are dose-related, which supports the tolerability argument for the lowest effective dose.

Nothing here is medical advice, and research-use compounds are not approved for human use.

Going back up after a short gap does not require re-titrating from the bottom.

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answeredDr_Idris_Coulibaly33k13720 May 2024
The arithmetic on steady state is worth doing once and remembering. – bac_or_bust 2 months ago
8Adding for future readers: write down what "working" means before you start. – helena_vidmar 11 days ago
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To be exact about it, this is a question the trial programmes answered only partially, and it is worth saying which parts are evidenced.

Glycaemic maintenance has a faster and cleaner signal than weight maintenance, particularly with continuous monitoring, which makes the downward search more tractable when glycaemia is the endpoint.

Dose-response for weight in the trial programmes was real but flattening at the upper end, which is consistent with a lower maintenance requirement.

The caveat is that dose reduction is a clinical decision and this is a description of a search strategy rather than a recommendation.

The withdrawal trials answer stopping, not reducing. Different questions.

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answeredorla_ferriter89k1486 Aug 2024
-1

Answering this needs the reason for the current dose, since a dose chosen for loss and a dose chosen for maintenance are different decisions.

The maintenance dose is not necessarily the same a year later, since the counter-regulatory response attenuates slowly if at all.

The STEP programme escalated semaglutide over sixteen weeks in four-week steps to 2.4 mg weekly, and the trial-product estimand versus treatment-policy estimand distinction accounts for most of the difference between the figures quoted from those papers.

Search downward, one step, eight weeks each, on a rolling average.

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answeredbridget_nyathi12k1511 Jun 2024

Your answer

Ask PeptideStack is a static archive. Posting is closed, but the norms are worth stating: answer the question that was asked, show your working, cite the trial or the certificate, and say plainly where the evidence runs out.

Not medical advice. Research-use-only compounds are not approved for human use.